Category: the Rant Board
I just posted this rant on Facebook, and based on the reaction I got, I figured I'd post here. Lately I’ve been seeing a viral Facebook post about a mother who makes her six-year-old son take her out on a date once a month. She has him pay for them both every time, with the money he earns from chores. In this process, she makes him hold all the doors, pull out chairs, makes him listen to everything she has to say. all this is supposed to teach him how to treat a woman “properly” and “with respect,” because the mother has apparently had a history of being abused, and wants to prevent her son from ever doing this to a woman. Am I the only one who has a problem with this? Sure, I’m a non-parent, I know that. But there is so much more to treating a woman right than this. I wonder if this mother has thought about the fact that most abusers are charismatic charmers? If she's been abused as she says, then she should know this. Abusers already know the stuff she's teaching her son. They know how to take a woman out on a so-called "proper date," (what is that, anyway?) They know very well how to pay for her, how to listen carefully to her and her feelings at first...And then to take all that so-called "chivalry" and all that listening and use it against her. This mother is only scratching the most shallow parts of treating a woman with respect. Not to mention that part of treating a woman with respect is to recognize that the man doesn't have to do everything for her. A man doesn't always have to hold the door, (she can hold doors too), she can take her turn paying for their dinner. Why not teach your son to respect an empowered woman, not to coddle her? I'm finally with a man who treats me like a princess, and it's not because he babies me. It's because he recognizes me as the strong woman I am, and respects me for it. I promise I'm not the raging feminist I've no doubt come across as so far. There's a flipside to this. I'm all for the *equal* treatment of women, but not special treatment for us. I said Mark treats me like a princess, and in turn, I respect him, and try to treat him as the prince. Too many women forget that men are deserving of respect too. Perhaps parents need to be teaching their daughters how to treat a man properly? Ah, but we never hear that! we don’t talk about all the myriad ways women disrespect men and treat them like crap. Women can even abuse men. Not as often physically, but emotionally and verbally. Oh, wait, I forgot, that’s not popular or trendy!
I write all that as someone who has been treated like crap by men in the past, but also as someone who openly acknowledges it has gone the other way. I have treated men like crap before too, and know how very wrong I was to have done so. And, though it's unrelated to the rest of my rant, in my opinion any parent having their child take them out on a date is pretty high on the creepy scale. I don't care what the gender of either the parent or child is. Creepy.
she's not teaching him not to be an abuser. She's just teaching him to be a very polished one. Let's not even explore all the resentment he'll most likely end up with. And then they say you can tell how a man will treat his wife by how he treats his mother. this kid will grow to hate women.
Alicia you said you're not a parent but you hit on something.
Sure, in this culture what she's doing is probably getting all the gendered
preferential treatment for this. However, the real problem is ideology.
Parents who pick up a particular book on parenting, or a particular idea, then
completely dismiss the humanity of the child in favor of the ideological response
they want that child to provide.
I know this sounds harsh, but such parents don't love their children. They just
love the *idea* of what their child *should* become.
I will tell you with certain clarity that even if that child does become what she
wants, he may well remain dutiful to her until she dies, but will never really
view her the way so-called normal parent / child relationships are. She is
making her bed, and someday she will surely sleep in it, alone. It's the end for
ideologues who have kids, and few of us sympathize with them.
I think she need to find a boy/girlfriend.
I kind of see this as a form of abuse in itself.
Teaching him how to respect a woman, and creating a false respect situation is not the same.
She’s making him make up for what she doesn’t have.
He’s 6 now, so how far is she going to go?
Okay, I’m thinking on the sick end, but you’ve got to see that angle.
In some cultures, a man or a woman will take the child out. But they don’t call these dates.
Example, a dad will take his daughter to lunch to give her the experience of how lunch with a male will be.
It is just a dad daughter lunch, not a date.
She learns to eat, chat, like that.
Same with a mother. The parent pays.
In that context, it is acceptable to me, but in this one, I’d have to tell her, she really needs to get a boy/girlfriend and stop making her son fill her loneliness.
Alicia, I really apologize here.
You were very brave to bring this up. I've known many boys over the years who
had the grave misfortune of looking like the father when the mother became
estranged from the father for any number of reasons.
You, or somebody, needs to contact CPS in her area. With screen shots if
necessary. They can at least do a welfare check, and follow up. If someone can
send CPS the information on this woman, you could prevent a male suicide or
worse, a young baby boy being deprived a lot of things.
I was a little boy in the 70s and had the gut-wrenching experience of having
friends go through this in various ways.
This woman is not fit to be a parent. Clearly this is cover for other and much
more nefarious, activities. I understand that baby boys in our culture are non-
persons, especially to single mothers, but the CPS (Child protective services) do
not see it this way.
Make an anonymous phone call, give them all the information you can.
If for some reason you cannot do this, you have my email address. Contact me,
I can friend you on Facebook, and then try to see this for myself and get it
done.
If there is both a God and a Hell, I should be in it if I fail to at least offer my
assistance. I have no excuse here as I've seen precisely what these types will
do. Make no mistake, this is just as bad, and potentially deadly, as the father
who will demand his daughter do for him what he thought his ex-wife would
not. A man who forces his little girl to do all the housework and things, or a
woman who does what this mother is doing to this little boy, is merely using the
child as a sacrificial object to make themselves feel better.
You are brave to have spoken up. And if for any reason you cannot contact CPS
in that area yourself, don't blame yourself. After all, you were bold enough to
put this here for the rest of us.
But some of us have seen enough that we are without excuse. And perhaps that
is why, if you believe in fate or what have you, that this got posted.
Maybe CPS will do nothing. Maybe they will intervene. But in either case, you
may by your post here, have already prevented a male suicide. This stuff is
absolutely terrible for boys to live with, not because of money and dates, but
because of the bronze-aged idea of visiting past transgressions on to the new
generation, the boy is expected to pay for previous people's "sins", if you will.
And that payment is *never* complete.
I repeat, no matter what you do or don't do, you were extremely brave in my
opinion, to have posted this here. It's very serious. Most always minimized, yes.
But serious.
If you do contact me, and I am able to get through and view the content online,
I would never tie your name to it. The gruff male abuser is more obvious to us,
because he lacks the veneer of "doing the right thing" or "concern." But her
actions are no less serious. She's making it extremely clear to the little boy that
he is responsible for making reparations for what happened to her.
I've been on the other side; I have been through situations as a child with
women, that I have no evidence to prove or desire to describe. But in absolutely
no way have I, as a father, ever even told my daughter let alone expect her to
pay reparations for stuff that happened decades before she was born.
As a responsible adult, the very last thing I ever wanted her to come into
contact was similar situations. Abuse isn't a gender thing. And someone making
their child make reparations for wrong done to them is clearly unfit to be a
parent. I'm usually the last person to try and get the government involved. But
this is something where it's warranted. The fact the victim is a boy is going to
be very difficult to get anyone to take this seriously. But I would be remiss if I
did not extend the offer to you.
But no matter what, Alicia you were brave to post this online. This sort of thing
is not easy at all, and by having posted, you've taken a huge step in this child's
favor.
I admit to having a hard time writing this, but you have my word and I will keep
it if you wish. If not me, then hopefully someone you know and trust better can
help if you need. She sounds like a bit of a crusader and may come back on
you, which is in part why I extend the offer. I'm not only persona non grata but
totally unknown to her. And I would be able to contact someone probably online
if I do some digging, and send screen shots if I can figure out how to do so on
my mac here.
I'm sorry, but I must agree with Leo. This is beyond wrong. I know where this will go, because, I've heard stuff just as twisted. And, this is twisted.
I cannot feel sorry for the woman. I can only pity the 6-year-old. He's too young for this!
I'm not against kids "Helping Mama and Daddy." I am however against a son being told to spend money on Mom. There's something very wrong with this.
Blessings,
Sarah
Completely ridiculous parenting on her part. agree with Leo.
It is on Facebook. Others see it.
Reporting her might not work. Maybe she's covered her bases?
Be aware however, when you report, make sure your local authority is up to the job.
Many times the kids get in to a worse situation then they are.
I have experienced this many times.
Maybe the group, family, or people in her friends base would be a better source to get her to see reason?
Leo, I know nothing of this woman, or where she is from, so there's no way I can do that. It was a media story, not one on my personal friends list. If it was anyone I knew personally, I'd be speaking up, believe me. The woman's name is Nikkol Paullin, whoever that is.
I guess my problem is on a few levels. One is the way she's treating the kid, yes. But it's broader than that. It's a societal thing. It's one of those stories that, as it gets shared, gets thousands of comments. I read through some of them because I was bored, and an a mazing number of people are applauding this. They think it really does teach the kid how to treat a woman right. My issue is more with our society and its ideas of what treating a woman right is. My problem is that girls aren't usually taught to treat a man with with any kind of respect. Most women are taught they can get what they want out of a man by demanding it, nagging him to death, or being passive-aggressive little bitches. It's just music, but for example, the point I'm making is illustrated in songs like Megan Trainor's Dear Future Husband, where she's saying something like, "You have to treat me like a lady, even if I'm acting crazy." Or the 90's
version of that would be Shania Twain's Any Man of Mine.
So, so true. Smile.
Does my heart good to see a lady say this.
Usually it is the man who's a sum bitch, and if he doesn't kiss her ass, he's not worthy.
Pay for the dates. Send the flowers. Open the doors.
After all that at her door, she says "don't call me, I'll call you." JK.
On a serious note, do you find more women agreeing with her then men?
I'm calling a big bravo Seiarra on this video. I remember awhile back there was a fb post going around of a video made by some Australian where he was on the streets pretending to be a blind person, and asking the public to give him change for a 5 dollar bill. However, he was actually presenting them with a 50, but pretending it was a 5. Some people told him that it was the 50, while others ripped him off. The public was outraged by those who weren't honest.But you see, the "honest" and "dishonest" people had one thing in common. The entire video was staged... they were aspiring actors. The only reason anyone knows this is because someone else who was watching the same person's videos happened to see a few people that had starred in his other videos. After shit hit the fan, the guy who produced the video, the guy who was acting like he was blind that is, came out with a public apology. You can watch it here
I've seen a lot of other people post videos and shit like that which ended up being fake, and I'm willing to bet this is another one of those.
Oh, and I should add, the first actor the blind actor approaches rips the 50 dollar bill out of the fake blind guy's hand and runs away. It's not immediately obvious if you aren't listening close, or if you can't see the video.
wow! that's the craziest thing I've ever heard; End of story. :)
Sorry but seriously nothing else to add. Agree with your reasonings 100% Alicia.
Even if the post is not legit, it is an interesting question.
It is also an interesting study.
People are posting to it. I'd enjoy hearing if more women agree with this over men, or how the post are divided.
I think all of you are really over-reacting to this Facebook story. It probably is a hoax, but geez, if not, the woman is at least spending time with her kid. He's not being abused. His future's not going to be ruined, because he pulled out a chair for his mommy. A daughter's future isn't going to be ruined because she did the dishes, and helped with chores in the home where she lives. That seems like just teaching a little bit of responsibility. Kids in previous decades were expected to do much more than that!
KC, interesting experiment, in the video. But I hate to see people being fooled! I couldn't watch all of it, but it seems that the women were more likely to be honest than the men. And is that a cane he's tapping, at the start of the video?
But a 6 year old earning money and taking his mother out to eat, plus doing all the niceties? It's like Alicia said. if this was a dad making the little girl do all the housework and taking the dad out to dinner with her earnings, I bet the media would be reacting differently. In a way, it would serve this woman right if the little boy in the hoax turned out to be gay. lmao, icing on the cake.
Plus she's calling it a date and acting in that way.
She's not calling it a mother son lunch, or dinner.
She doesn't have to have him take her out and pay to teach respect, now does she?
I'm reacting to the situation, false or not.
Like the video. False or not, it makes an interesting study.
I actually hope the kid turns out transgendered, tells everyone later on that he (then she) got a first pass at understanding who holds the power, and ultimately figured out what it takes for him (now her) to make it.
I'm all in favour of treating women well. I'll hold doors, I'll offer to grab the cheque more often than not, I sometimes pull out chairs.
But I try and treat -everyone well. I hold doors for everyone. I'd offer to get the cheque if I was out with a guy friend as well. I hold chairs so rarely that it essentially doesn't matter if I haven't done it for a guy friend. And I know myself well enough that if I was gay, or even bisexual, I'd feel the same way about a male partner as a female in these regards.
Both of my parents were raised in a way that stressed chivalry a bit more than is commonly done today. My dad still believes that "you don't hit a woman", for instance. I prefer to think that you don't hit anyone except in self-defense, after which point it doesn't matter what their gender is.
Speaking as a man, I'm in total agreement with Alicia earlier on. I treat Meglet well, but it's not because she's a woman; it's because she's a person I respect and who I want to do well by. And she does more than enough of the same to make it an even toss. She's very good to me, and I know it's not because she's expected to or because I'm male.
If this story is real, it's disgusting. It's using the veneer of "good intentions" to cover up something pretty freaking monstrous when you look at it. Sure, teach your kid to hold doors and to be a good listener if you want; that's politeness. But if this is truth instead of a hoax, why is the kid paying for the so-called dates with his own money? Why is he an object being used to prove a point? That's not right. And if it was a man doing it to a little girl, I'd say the exact same thing. There's a right way and a wrong way to instil solid values in your children. Even without being a parent myself, having no plans of becoming one, I know this is the wrong way.
Greg, thank you. And yes, I buy dinner and things for male friends, in particular poorer ones, ones who are coming into town, and yes, the millennials types because they're being crippled by a terrible economy.
I think true equality is treating everyone well.
Ironically, when I was younger, we strove for a color-blind and gender-blind society. Today, the alleged "left" is so busy counting colors and creating genders that the whole notion of Martin Luther King Jr.'s "... not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character ..." is totally lost on this new crowd. My suspicion as to why? It's just more profitable to make tons of money off the learned helplessness.
Remember, she can teach him to go through the motions and to be a really great charmer, but she can't teach him to love. I dare say when he's a teenager and they have a disagreement, he won't be allowed to speak out of turn, since she would deem this to be disrespectful, and that's not how a man should treat a lady. I'd love to see this kid in about 15 years.
No. She can't teach him to love.
I'd say with this type of teaching, she's teaching him not to love, but to react to pressure.
Getting a boy to want to open your door and pull out your chair, and pay for you has to be taught by loving him, not demanding these things of him.
It was pointed out earlier, that the way a man treats his mother might translate to how he'll treat you.
Something to think about.
Wow, reading through some of these posts, you'd think someone was being abused, or something else horrific!!
True or not, I'm glad that this mom is showing her little boy what kindness means, and teaching him to be helpful towards others. He's at the age where he can be taught at his appropriate level what responsibility looks like. Not just that, but I'll play devil's advocate here and say that none of us knows whether this boy enjoys buying things for his mommy. Therefore, we can't ttruthfully say that this is "wrong." Because there are a lot of unknowns in this story.
So as an example, I have a friend who would take his 6-year-old son around places blindfolded, so that his son could get the experience of what it was like to have to use your other senses. Was my friend's son being abused? Some of you would probably say yes. Yet, my friend will tell you that he loved it and applauded his father for allowing him to experience something different.
The fact that makes it worth my bitch, is she calls these dates, not mother son outings.
Next, she doesn't pay, but insist he pay.
You can help your kid learn about responsibility by having them do chores around the house, or earn privileges. I mean privilege like the dictionary not like these new kids use. So if they want a phone or some other thing they demonstrate they're responsible enough to have it.
And you can appreciate when they wiullingly want to give you something. But typecasting the boy as "needing to be taught how to treat women" because he's born male, that's totally wrong.
I tend to see both sides of an issue. This is either a strength, or a folly. So it is that I’m not really sure how to feel about this “article”, be it fake or real. The problem here is we know nothing about their relationship beyond that which is presented, and it’s easy to jump to conclusions based solely on our own perceptions. . So she uses the word “date”. There are daddy daughter dates, and that doesn’t mean it’s creepy by default. I’ve gone on mother son “dates” with my own mother, and was also taught to hold doors and pull out chairs, and basically treat a woman like a lady. For me that translated into doing it for everyone too. I’m not gender confused, or gay, or hold resentment towards women. Sure I’ve broken a few hearts in my life, loathed as I am to admit that, but I believe I’m pretty well adjusted in how I treat people. Of course, I didn’t pay for lunch, and it wasn’t every week or anything. Maybe that’s the defining factor. Anyway, this is Either some creepy pseudo pedofelia thing, or just a simulation and a means of educating. We don’t know. Perhaps he’s a bit young, but if this is being done out of love and education, then it’s actually not a bad things. The things we learn at a young age follow us. We don’t know how this little boy feels. Or how he’ll turn out. As for paying for the “date” with his own money? We don’t know how their family finances work. Does he only ever get that money which he must then use all of it to pay for his mother’s lunch, thereby leaving him unable to get anything at all? Or does his mom still get him the things he needs, and sometimes wants, like most parents? Either way, he’s six. And this situation hardly constitutes an inability to get mad at his mother later in life. There’s a huge difference between getting angry or frustrated with your parents, and outright disregarding or disrespecting them. Either way, unless there’s more information, this just seems like story to be sensationalized.
I can see that. I'm going on the facts here.
You are correct, I have no idea. I'm bitching about the concept, not the act I guess.
Wow, this board exploded since I last logged in. Smiles.
A couple things. One, this was not a video, it was a written post. When Scott brought up the idea of it being a hoax, I hit Google, because most of the time if something viral is a hoax, Snopes will have info on it. I had to do a little mor searching than planned, because I couldn't remember the exact spelling of the woman's name. In an earlier post on this board, I misspelled her name. Her name is actually spelled Nikkole Paulun. She's apparently most well-known for being on the Reality TV show 16 and Pregnant, which should tell you something right there. I don't think this post was false, because if you google her name, the first couple results that come up are news articles about her son taking her on dates, and about how this particular Facebook post went viral. So, I'd say it's true, in the sense that it happens, but then, how much truth can you expect from a reality TV star?
There are three major levels that this woman's actions get pretty outrageous on. One is the parental level, which I have largely left alone because I am not a parent. I don't feel I can speak very credibly to that one, even though I do acknowledge and think about it.
Then there's this whole double-standard thing that prompted me to post this board on here. I forget who first said it, but they were right that, had a father been doing this kind of thing with a little girl, he'd have gotten crap for it, not praised as Paulun is. And yes, she is not teaching him to love. She's teaching him the charms that actual abusers already know how to do all too well. As Gregg said, he treats Meglet well because she's a person he loves and respects, not just because she's a woman, and vice versa. Isn't that how people should treat each other in general, but, in this particular case, how couples should treat their partner, regardless of gender? I've never understood these societal norms that somehow dictate different manners toward a woman. In many cases, they were trappings to hide the fact that, when they were used at their most prevalent, women were actually treated like crap behind closed doors. Now many modern women, like a lot of other previously oppressed minority groups, have decided that it's time not just to be equal, but to exact revenge on their so-called oppressors by thinking they can treat men like crap, and get away with it, but still expect to be treated like queens. I'd love to tell these types of women, sorry ladies, that's not how it works, or at least, not how it should work.
That leads me to the third level, the topic of abuse itself. There's a ton of info out there about women who are victims of domestic violence, or even verbal and emotional abuse. How even daring to ask a question about why the woman stayed with her abuser is victim-shaming and should not be done. But rarely, if ever, is anything out there about a man who falls prey to a woman's abuse, or even the abuse of another man. If it does come out that a man has been enduring mental/emotional abuse by a partner, particularly a female partner, society has no problem asking why the hell he stayed with her, why he was so weak, why he didn't man up. Somehow if it's a woman victim that's shaming, if it's a male victim, it's ok. Again, double-standard that pisses me off, especially because I know several men who were victims of abuse by women, and got treated this way when they tried to get out. I have a very serious problem with that.
I dunno. I suppose there are holes in the context. But even without those holes filled, this is a pretty shaky scenario at the very very best. Here's why:
1. A six-year-old doesn't understand the idea of agency. He doesn't even have all of his ability to reason straight yet, for pity's sake. His ability to rationally weigh the decision his mother is putting on him is questionable at best and ludicrous at worst. Many children much older than he is will doo a thing not because they honestly want to, but because mommy or daddy wants them to. I'm not suggesting that all parents should forego any choices for a child until they can reason - that would be impossible - but it's awfully hard to say "this is what the boy wanted" at six, particularly when the content is as questionable as it is. If he was saying he wanted a cookie instead of chocolate pudding, that would be different, mostly because it's not so freaking loaded.
Those of you who know me might notice a bit of similarity to this stance and to my oft-professed issue with indoctrinating children into religion when they're young. Falls largely under the same heading. They're not equipped to make these decisions fairly and without enormous parental bias, so don't simultaneously say they need guidance and then try to say they're guiding themselves.
2. Even if we assumed for a moment that the six-year-old is really really self-aware and smart, and is in fact cognizant of and okay with what's happening, why is mommy resorting to this? Why is mommy insisting that he pay for the meals? Why does it have to be done outside the home at all? Why is mommy making him hold doors, pull out chairs and listen in a way which practically screams female empowerment and old chivalrous expectations of the man's role on a date? Why is any of this being done at all? And, if any of it truly is necessary, why can't it be explained? After all, it strikes me that any child capable of deciding things for himself in a mature, emotionally uncompromised manner would respond extremely well to a funny little thing called dialogue. I'm no fool, and I didn't need any pseudo-dates to teach me manners and a little friggin' courtesy. I also didn't have to spend any of my money either. I just listened when my parents spoke, did my best to sift the useful bits from the rest, and came out the other side. And I daresay I'm not the minority here.
The reason people are up in arms about this, Chelsea and Violet Blue, is not because the act is monstrous. Depending on context, maybe it's not. It's because it's needless and far beyond what would be necessary. You don't need object lessons to teach values. You especially don't need to be teaching backward thinking. Basic manners are not a herculean task to learn, and it is not always the man's job to pull out a chair, take the cheque or be a blank wall who listens and comforts and does precious little else.
WAIT A moment. Are you saying that women are rarely asked why they stayed in abusive relationships, AND MEN ARE? I’m not sure what kind of women you’ve encountered, but, at least for much of my lifetime, I’ve encountered, either personally, via other people, or other news stories many people who have asked that very question. I myself have either wondered about or asked several women that very question. Heck, I’m sure there’s even psychological studies done on the subject, though about this I’ve not looked. I won’t deny that, as a whole, women have been, and in many ways still are treated as second class citizens. That does create some double standards that I too am not too fond of. But I think learning how to interact with and treat a woman when you’re a man is not a bad thing. Doing so at a young age is good also. Men and women are, at least in my mind, equal. But that doesn’t mean they are the same. Women and men, to generalize, do tend to approach and work differently. That isn’t bashing women, or men for that matter, it’s simply stating things as I see them, and as many studies have shown. Our brains are just different. And yes, I know there are probably exceptions. I don’t know what the reaction would be were it a man taking his daughter out on “dates”, though I’m sure there are people who would psycho-analyze that too, but I do think people as a whole like to make mountains out of mole hills as it were when it comes to stories in the media. Even if this woman was a pedofelic mentally ill psychopath, I don’t think what she’s doing is inherently “wrong” by default. Though it does come down to the individuals involved to make the experience worth-while in a nurturing and educational way, I think there’s a lot to be said for educating one’s children about how to treat people with respect, and to a degree, how to interact with members of the opposite sex. Now, I realize that my opinion might be moot by default because I’m a man. But when she’s older, I’d love to be able to take my daughter out on a “date” as it were and help her as much as I can. Even as adults sometimes, girls have a hard time figuring out boys, and boys have a hard time figuring out girls. We as parents aren’t going to be able to help in every situation, for there are no strict rules on how either gender behaves, but we can certainly do our best to demystify certain aspects.
No no, I'm not saying women rarely get asked this question. They get asked it all the time. I know that. What I'm saying is, that there is becoming a push that says a woman should not be asked this, because it's considered shaming the victim. Yet if it's a man who has endured abuse, it's somehow deemed ok to ask that same question, and criticize him for being weak. If we're going to consider said question as shaming a woman victim and that it should not be asked, the same should go for a male victim. I'm not saying it's rare, just saying it should go both ways.
Ohhh, sorry for the misunderstanding. In that case I agree completely.
I wasn't referring to this as a video, but the blind money scheme thing.
I'm a parent, and I'll tell you, if a man takes his daughter out, it better be a dad daughter thing. If he refers to it as a date, he'll get hitty looks.
Shep, a 6 year old know quite a bit actually. The process starts about 4 and grows.
If this is actually happening, by the time he's 8 he'll wonder why he has to take his mom out, but other boys don't.
He'll not care about the doors and chair bit, but the date bit.
I might not be explaining it well, but it won't be the normal thing other boys are doing for mom.
I am assuming this is an actually situation again.
Greg, who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to say what is needed, and not needed with regards to how this lady is choosing to parent her child?
As I've said, even with the context we've been given, I think most of you are blowing this way out of proportion--I applaud this mother for going on outings with her child, and otherwise being there for him in a way some parents are not there for their children.
While there's no telling how this kid will actually turn out, I'm sure he'll appreciate the time he had with his mom and if anything, if articles about this are still around, he ought to be horrified at the over reactions on most people's parts.
Who am I to worry?
I'm a man who knows there's a huge difference between worrying about a thing and purporting to interfere with it.
I'm a man who knows the harm backward thinking can do. All this bullshit about teaching a kid to pull out a chair and pay for the cheque because he's male is just that...backward thinking, and I'm calling it out as such. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm a man who understands, at least in sweeping terms, the way the brain works. At six, your brain does not have anywhere near the logical capacity it gains by even, say, the age of eleven. Those synapses are still growing, those mental connections are still being made.
I'm a man who understands the sometimes wonderful and sometimes terrible sway a parent has over a child at the age of six in almost all cases. I've watched it lift people up, and I've watched it break people down.
I don't need to know this woman, or be a parent, or be an expert in any given field, in order to have an opinion. If I was trying to say that mine was the only interpretation, and forcibly trying to change this woman's behaviour, then okay sure. But the instant you start throwing around the sort of "who are you to say" arguments, Chelsea, you undermine 1. the right to free speech and 2. your own oft-professed platform of "say what you want and accept the consequences".
So far, the only consequence has been that you take objection to rational worry and concern. I think that's worth paying for. But perhaps, since you're the sort of person who'd probably indoctrinate your own child as a Christian as early as you could, you cannot but protest when someoone else calls out the potential (yes, potential) pitfalls in forcing object lessons of this magnitude and on this subject upon a child who is intellectually and emotionally not going to be well-equipped to handle them with a level head.
Whew, holy run-on sentence!
I, am a woman who was disrespected by a mother and a stepfather. I'm an aunt, who wants her Nephew and Niece to know what's "appropriate behavior!" I'm a human being, who has realized that nothing will be perfect here. I'm someone who feels for the child, because I saw things that girls at age six and seven should not see. I know the evil is out there. I know, cause I've seen it.
Chelsea, once again, think you are either really dense, or that you are just yelling because you want to be the adverse person. The one who disagrees with anything.
I'm also the one thinking society's going too far on some things! We, as humans are not ever going to be safe. It's a truth, that evil is there, and will always be there. Whatever anyone wants to call it: the devil, the bad guys, the dirty people, sickos... Does it really matter who I am. What are you? Are you just a cruel person? Or, are you the antagonistic kind? Offended by right, and oh so understanding of perverts?
Blessings,
Sarah
Meals should be a time for this woman to connect with her son and actually allow him to be a child. she can teach through example how to respect others, (not just women, but all people). She should not make him use allowance she gives him to pay for their meal once a month. as an alternative, she could foot the bill, but have him do the math so he understands how to make those calculations without actually having him go through the motions all the time to drill this concept of tipping wait staff into his six-year-old brain.
Sure, he's okay with it now, but it's only because mommy is happy, and making mommy happy is an extrinsic motivator for his current behavior. He is not learning the internal rewards for helping others through this exercise, like paying the bill because it feels good to him to help others. she is only thinking about herself, and he is only doing this because mom expects this of him. Resentment will come later on if she still expects him to carry on with this gender stereotyping bullshit when he's a teenager, embarrassing him socially and shaping him into what she thinks he should be based on her own previous experiences, rather than letting him develop his own sense of self while guiding his choices and offering advice on what to do as far as making good choices is concerned. completely messed-up parenting.
Excellent answer.
Is he paying for the meal out of his allowance, or is it a situation where she's handing him the money, and he in turn hands it over to the cashier? I've seen people in line at grocery stores having their kids practice paying. I just assumed that's what we were talking about, here. I don't see anything wrong with that. Depriving him of his own allowance is quite another thing, I agree.
The way I see it is just this: parents should teach by example, and that's not what she is doing. She is exemplifying what the woman should do and not what he should do. If she wants to teach the child kindness and courtesy, she ought to be kind and courteous. Demonstrate it herself and he is more likely to understand and emulate it. Yes, you can certainly drill manners to some extent, and so you should, but your best bet is to model the behaviour you want to see in your child. My dad did drill us on please and thank you, but I learned to be polite and kind and considerate by watching him be so himself. I won't touch the sexism thing, since I think I've made my position on women receiving "chivalrous" special treatment quite clear on other threads.
I agree with you Alicia. There are lots of other, better ways tis woman could go about teaching her son to be a good, decent person. As others have said, teaching by example is often an excellent way to go about this.
Vilet, the way the original story put it, he pays for them both out of the money he earns from doing chores. She thinks this teaches him about money management along with everything else. I need to find the text of the original story to post. I'll see if I can do that later.
Hi.
Very interesting subject.
Sorry for my English I hope what I am going to write will make sence.
I don't know exactly how in general most children behave these days in the states, since most of you you are from there or even in other let's say modern countries.
But I will tell you the situation in Cyprus.
Until the 60s perhaps, most children were poor, they grew up in very strict families and schools.
When these people became parents eventually, they didn't want their children to have a difficult life like the one they had, so they started giving them everything they wanted without limits.
This is a general picture.
I am not saying that everyone did that but a large number.
So children and teenagers these days the only thing they know is to ask for things, they don't know how to give something in return and they don't appreciate what they have in life.
Personally I don't like the situation before the 60s, but I don't like the situation these days either.
People went from one extream to the other.
These days children know only about their rights but not much about their responsibilities.
I think this is what this woman is trying to achieve.
Trying to teach some responsibilities to her son.
I don't like the word date either, but I don't think it is that bad what she is doing.
I have got a 3 year old son, and with my wife we started teaching him some things as well.
For example we gave him his presents for Christmas, but also we game him some small presents to give to us as well because it is important to learn that it's not only children that they need present for Christmas but parents as well.
And I don't think it is bad when he gets a bit older to give a very small amout of his money to buy things.
Children these days don't understand that money is very easy to spend but very difficult to earn and they ask for more things from their parents.
But as I said we need to be carefull with our children.
We don't need spoiled children but not scared children either, like the once from the past.
It's not easy to know where exactly is the middle of these 2 situations so we will have to listen to our children, adupt when needed and do the best we can.
Happy new year to everyone.
Again, there are other ways she could teach him these lessons. But forcing him to use his allowance to pay for dates and attend to her every whim on said dates is not the right way to do it.
Encouraging him to use his allowance is not a bad thing--to me, she's showing him that it's important to do nice things for one's mother every once in a while. There is no harm in that.
Encourage? yes. Force, no.
Encourage him to use his allowance in any number of helpful things. Buying a friend a treat. Doing something nice for someone. Saving a little every month to put away for a big purchase. This is money management, and encouragement is good.
But he shouldn't be -forced to use this allowance, which is his first experience with what he'll see as his own money, to take his mother out to a restaurant in order to be force-fed frankly ridiculous crap about gender roles. That's a good many steps too far.
I agree with Shepherdwolf. Sooner or later this kid is going to resent his mother for this.
I taught the daughter to save some of her allowance, and even how to give intelligently. She has always had a big heart and would have just wanted to give to the first thing that came up. There are ways to actually do this stuff properly.
I'm speaking as one who has been a parent, and yes that matters. Someone who has been a heart surgeon is more qualified than I am to speak of heart surgery.
i'd just like to address the idea that a father doing this sort of thing would be
reiddiculed. I have to disagree. Google a little thing called purity balls. If you're
not horrified by them, and see a direct link with this sort of story, I question
your mental faculties.
I'm sorry, but I still say who are all of you to say what is right in this situation? Opinions are fine, but saying something is flat out wrong, is in itself, wrong--there are many ways of doing things, and just because you or I wouldn't do things a certain way, doesn't mean they are therefore wrong when someone else does them differently than we might.
Become a man.
Take your daughter out on a "date" and treat her in the fashion like this.
Pull out her chair, open her door, buy her some flowers.
Tell this to a public form.
Explain to all the authority's that visit you, this isn't wrong, it is just a different way of doing things.
You are teaching your daughter how a man should treat her.
The first question will be, and what happens when you are home alone with her?
Can we see where she sleeps?
Ah.
Purity balls, or "Who wants the Rose". Yes, those are pretty horrendous, and yes I've seen them come under tremendous scrutiny.
In fact it is just that scrutiny which made me aware of them.
Amen Sisterdawn!!!
I agree. How far will she go? Chelsea, you must not know much about being victimized. That's why some of us are suspicious. We have to watch out, so this or that does not happen again. Diane Douns, forgive my spelling, told her kids they had to die to please her. Her son's in a wheelchair, cause she put a bullet in him.
I'm not saying taking on the role of instruction is wrong. However, when someone decides teaching anatomy means, "go to bed and let me show you the parts of the male body, instead of just discussing them, that's too far. So, how far is this so-called "Mom," going?
For me, it all comes back to cost-benefit: to what degree will the child actually learn what he's supposed to, in the right way, and what harm might this teaching style cause? One of my uncles and his wife raised their two daughters to become little hostess slaves. They were the type who were always entertaining, always had friends over, and those little girls were making (alcoholic) drinks and serving snacks to these friends by the time they were seven, late into the night, with little opportunity to go off and enjoy their weekend evenings. The girls were "taught responsibility" by being made to essentially raise themselves, while being at their parents' beck and call. All this was done in the name of making sure they turned into responsible adults who were respectful, polite, and competent. What they got were two very bitter, resentful daughters. Everything those girls learned, they learned on their own, and they gravitated towards adults who let them be kids now and then. While this situation is quite different, and lacks some of the creep factor, I still think it might end with the same sad result.
No, maybe we can't declare this mother's actions to be objectively "wrong". But we can certainly point out the harms they might cause.
Fifty points says chelsea won't notice the ironic hypocrisy in post 50.
Yes, I actually have read about the purity ball thing, and that creeps me out much in a similar fashion as this does. This kind of reminded me of that, only going the other way. Purity balls get scrutinized, as they should, and yet this largely gets praised. Well, not as much on here, but certainly the viral post on FB did.
Yup. Word something in just the right way, and people go "aww" instead of "ewww".
I don't care if you're a pacifist: If you see the video where the preacher does
the "Who wants the rose?" speech for young girls, you will want to kill.